Thats the beauty to silly idealists who pretend they can’t understand that hundreds of employees getting paid full time wont materialize out of thin air to keep a massive project like a web browser alive in the absence of that structure.

Firefox then

Whoo it is chained by googles search engine deal

This is some serious self eating idealist talk here.

In life you must realize there are many situations where you think about the context and consequences of your choices, and you choose the closest to viable option.

Firefox is that.

It sucks that there is that google deal, but ultimately the world effects of firefox dying are wide reaching despite its diminishing numbers and so much greater than so many casually Mozilla doomer takes realize.

Do people realize that if Firefox dies (in the many ways that could be interpreted), all of these downstream forks will also die right?

Like, the work to in essence remove unwanted parts of a code base is admirable but its an utterly miniscule fraction of the work that goes into maintaining a modern browser, keeping up with standards, sending people to be voices at conventions, etc.

Literally Firefox.

I feel like the reasons are obvious and I am constantly amazed at people who choose offshoots that end up having problems jsut as bad or worse than Chrome.

• Firefox actually uses an engine independent of Chromium

• Firefox keeps developer documentation for the actual open web in a a clear fashion better than anyone else with MDN.

• Firefox is responsible for all of the heavy lifting for any of the browsers downstream of it that people seem to want to switch to so that Mozilla is less supported and the browsers they are on also break (which is bizzare footgun behaviour in my opinion, and exactly why the people who are idealists inherently can’t win. They shoot themselves in the foot with idealism so hard that companeis don’t even have to care about their opinions).

• Firefox has more resistant than the engine makers of any other browser to anti autonomy web changes like Chromes manifest 3, tvarious new tracking mechanisms and more.

Excuse a little bit of snark at hypothetical responses below, but Im just so frustrated Ill let off a little steam here:

bUt Ai.

So they have a few AI features you have to purposefully find or stumble into, and that means you are going to do everything in your power to make sure your last actual chance to avoid completely Google domination dies too?

You are basically begging for the even more intense enshitification that will come if Firefox actually dies.

bUt SoMeOnE eLsE cAn CoNtInUe DeVeLoPmEnT

Oh yeah? Someone else is going to take on this project with a massive amount of legacy code, inside knowledge and hundreds of people working on it constantly to keep it completely up to date??

You must have been confused when I mentioned above Mozilla does the heavy lifting for the browsers down stream. Just because someone makes a fork that removes features doesnt mean they are equipped to handle the level of work done in the code they are downstream of.

Anyways, the bottom line is, for now, if you actually value open source, the answer is Firefox.

And people can choose to treat people the same based on that label, and I can choose to think it’s immature.

Sure, but I don’t really think you’ve outlined good reason for feeling so.

Are you dismissing the complaints about ml wholesale? If not, what of the fact that one cannot practically sift at such a fine grain level as looking at every single user?

No, I advocate for not dismissing people solely based on their chosen instance without taking into account their actual views. I do not advocate against blocking ml entirely,

How does the former not inherently functionally include the latter?

Only because you and other people have spent multiple comments not understanding me so I’m only repeating myself.

Is it possible that other people feel a legitimate sense of inconsistency in your comments, hence probing for more information? Or that people understand but disagree with some aspects of what you are saying?

No, I engaged with someone else on ml, and then you couldn’t resist engaging with me.

I think you’ve very much so misinterpreted my comment here and have taken a hostile tone due to that. My comment is referring to you engaging with the poster of this content.

Your wording as if I would have any reason to need to resist engaging is an odd way to portray me as angry for having any questions about what seem to be an inconsistent set of opinions.

That doesn’t mean I value this engagement or would miss it at all. Let me again repeat that my preference is to ignore these types of posts, which is why I refrained from commenting on the other similar posts OP has made in the past. It’s kind of silly to assume that engagement means you necessarily value the content.

The misunderstanding here, is that you said you aren’t missing anything by not being able to engage. This implies that you couldn’t or wouldn’t engage, but obviously your presence in this thread made that idea infeasible. That’s what my confusion was referring to.

It was (still is) unclear to me what you meant by that comment when you haven’t referred to any actual way that you’ve been impacted by this, so it appears you are complaining that you don’t care about a hypothetical thing that could but hasn’t happened seemingly for no reason at all.

Do you similarly think engaging with a racist by arguing with them means you must also value their content or presence? Of course not.

This is truly getting ridiculous. Outlandish comparison to bring into this.

Chiming in to say that I would not miss them, but also disagree with their views, is not contradictory.

I’ve never claimed the opposite, and indeed that wasn’t the point of that comment.

I think this kind of blanket assumption about people based on their instance is a net negative to the community. That said, I don’t think it’s at all inconsistent to both view OPs attitude as immature while simultaneously not caring if they decide to block ml, precisely because being blocked by immature people is not a net negative to me.

Actually in this very last sentence I think its pretty clear there is some contradiction. You say its a net negative, and this implies it matters any amount at all, or I suppose you could also hold the opinion that you don’t care at all about the community but then why bother, and obviously just by way of using it you must to some degree.

It just feels like you are trying to say “I have no dog in this race” to shield your opinion, when you very clearly do, hence debating it and hence the jump to anger present in this comment.

Seems pretty reasonable really.

That said, about this:

or pressure them to put a fair and unbiased as possible admin team.

I’m not sure fair or unbiased really have meaning as terms. I think its more that they seem strong handed and are alleged to have opinions based on propaganda rather than fact.

I definitely think the main developer publicly having those opinions is awful though. Projects have had drops in support for less.

These are not mutually exclusive and not contradictory at all

I mean the first one said its not a loss generally, not specifically but I can accept that you meant it differently than typed.

Imo this is not complaining, this is shit stirring. This meme isn’t even acknowledging that there are multiple types of people on ml, but advocates for treating everyone the same. Do you not see an issue with that?

I don’t think this has the full context.

You can’t really conveniently sort tankie from non tankie.

ml is a self choosen label though, so people can choose not to use it.

This is your assumption.

How is it an assumption at all? You literally say it again here where you advocate for not treating everyone the same.

All I’ve said here is that I don’t care

You’ve spent multiple comments expressing that lack of care… which doesn’t make it seem like you don’t care, but instead makes it seem like this bugs you because you feel its unfair, and you’ve said as much here.

it only reinforces the fact that I’m not missing anything by not being able to engage with people who are this immature.

But you are engaging with them… I am very confused. The people you are seeing the memes of are the people you are engaging with. The others, they probably aren’t posting about this and simply have it toggled off.

Mightn’t this be a case of the loud ones being the people who are complaining vs the silent who simply have moved on?

Anyhow, I just think its impossible to ignore that certain servers obviously follow some cultural trends. Some are even enforced by said servers and its communities. Many really, when you think about it (Its kinda what rules do to some extent).

Its clear you aren’t trying to have an honest discussion given that my comment was completely within context as a comparison to other entities which you had to deliberately remove to make your current statement.

To me it’s not a loss if someone isn’t able to receive my help if they decide that it’s not worth it to them - that’s their decision to make

You specifically said

then that’s their loss.

though. Like they’re missing out.

The constant handwringing and wishing about ml users suffering more from being blocked because you don’t like certain users

That seems like you’re going out of your way to ascribe malice to people who don’t want to be inundated with a certain type of tankie as if their goals are to hurt people as opposed to not be annoyed by their feeds.

honestly reeks of a sore ex who wants to twist the knife. If ml bothers certain users (I’m looking at OP especially) then just block ml and stop posting about it repeatedly (looking at you OP).

You can’t think of any reasons someone might not want to block but might still complain?

I mean here you are simultaneously advocating for not throwing out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to ml users, but then in the same breathe, you are saying people should simply block ml if they have complaints.

It doesn’t seem consistent to me.

More than that, people can choose which instance they want to be on. You could switch to a different instance at any time, and many people have accounts on multiple instances.

With no public vote scores etc, all you lose is a post history that is spotty anyways due to how many posts get deleted on lemmy.

You can find skeletons everywhere. The idea that Europe is the worst on the basis of what you list as one country having what looks footnote like compared to for instance, the USA or China, is bizarre. Seems like hyper focus on their faults due to being partial to the others.

What in the universe are you envisioning?

I could see some arguments for the US, (and even those are likely to be short sighted and naive), but the EU?

What is this in reference to?

I mean, you can say that, but its not really their loss, because you’re asking them to accept a lot more than just you.

It’s a package deal, and that package deal includes a boatload of clueless tankies who will happily copypasta the most outlandish ideas from their troves of propaganda to explain why actually brutal dictatorships are model societies for the left to ascribe to.

I must disagree with you there. I get more support from the open source community and their things than I do from commercial stuff.

I would say this is true, but only in a way that largely misses the finer details and thus the bigger picture.

The biggest example I can think of that that I feel generally represents what I was saying, is the difference between Fusion 360 and FreeCAD, where its free, because thats the value of your time if you use it.

FreeCAD will have a higher likelyhood to have you find a community helper to help with a specific technical problem, and while Autodesk does respond to tickets, they are less hands on and if your ticket gets resolved youll just get a notification a month or 2 later if lucky.

The thing is, Fusion is actually usable, and FreeCAD is painful to use. It is so painful, I won’t even hear the tired “people just aren’t used to it” arguments people love to trot out about it.

It purposefully uses UX that doesn’t match the patterns of any other CAD package, that people (enough that I am comfortable generalizing) find utterly unintuitive, and has had major issues that go unsolved simply because they’re not seen to be issues.

They literally only recently, after literal decades of existing partially solved the most famous problem, the topological naming problem, and they still don’t allow multiple profiles in one sketch.

Its Free, and maybe in some ways it could be said to have “support” but … if you make any money at all, you’d be literally better paying 800 bucks a year to Autodesk to not have to deal with it.

Just to be super clear if you aren’t familiar, Onshape, Solidworks, Inventor, whatever. All of them anyone who has used any of them can switch over and be proficient enough in minutes.

FreeCAD is the far outlier.

It’s so bad, because of the underlying spaghetti code, that some venture capitalists came in, thinking they could just fix the UX and then sell cloud services ontop, tried to fix it, realized the fire, realized there was no way they could make it profitable within a reasonable amount of time, and shut down.

That being said, I fully realize that FreeCAD is at the Gimp end of the spectrum and not the Blender end of the spectrum (with Blender being so good and useful that it is (in places) actually used in industry.

The most interesting part of this comment is that you could not answer the question, and instead needed to deflect, and answer a question that wasn’t asked.

This just goes to show that my question was indeed an on point criticism of the previous take.

Programmers can also create non-enshittified solutions in their off time and release it publicly for free and many do.

It’s a nice idea, but what that ultimately boils down to, is horrible to use programs with barely any support because people (reasonably) don’t have the time or support to give them the full beans.

They also result in programs that are basically only made for their users, and that, to everyone else are some weird esoteric programs with outlandish UX.

Like I like open source as much as the next guy, but open source software is not fixing the enshitification of society, especially as devices take away more and more user autonomy. These are bandaid solutions that allow the power users most equipped to make arguments against the hostile enshitification takeover to bury their heads in the sand as they scurry to stay alive, squeezing between the cracks, increasingly having to give up in more and more areas as solutions take more and more focus to keep alive.

Also, more than that, how many programmers actually are doing this? I’d say it’s a rare occurrence.

What good can a marketer do for the world?

Activism. They communicate and convince people, so activism is an area where they could help the world if they so chose.

This is such elitist nonsense. What specialty tricks do you think an every day user would possibly need to know that they couldn’t learn in a single semester.

This is elitist bullshit that isn’t reflected in the real world.

It truly is. They are literally just doing the infinite abstraction argument where they pretend only the level of abstraction they’re at is valid, when I could easily say that they don’t really know how to use a computer if they can’t compile their own C Code or program directly in assembly.

You don’t think scammers don’t also use other tools?

This is a ridiculous reason to replace more useful general skills with less useful specific skills (for the majority).